Episode 273-The Call for Educational Reform in the Neurodiverse Landscape with Dr. Matthew Zakreski

When Matthew Zakreski, with his unique blend of ADHD and giftedness, sits down to share his story, the conversation inevitably turns into a masterclass on neurodiversity advocacy. From navigating personal challenges to championing inclusive workplace practices, his insights offer a beacon of hope for individuals and families alike. Our discussion with Matthew takes a deep and meaningful look at the evolving landscape of neurodiversity, emphasizing the critical roles that education, community support, and policy play in creating environments where everyone thrives.

The journey of neurodiverse gifted children takes center stage as we explore the nuanced world of educational advocacy—a realm where giftedness is not just a blessing but a complex neurodivergence that demands recognition and tailored support. We traverse the history of this movement, from the tenacious mothers of the '60s to the robust networks that today champion the cause of these extraordinary children. Personal stories and expert insights merge, highlighting the indispensable need for specialized educational frameworks that can truly unlock the potential of twice-exceptional learners and address the systemic challenges they face.

Our exchange culminates in a vision of transformed educational settings, where the diversity of minds is not just acknowledged but celebrated. We recognize that when the educational paradigm shifts to embrace individuality, all students benefit from a richer, more inclusive learning experience. The thoughtful conversation with Matthew serves as a clarion call to educators, parents, and policymakers: to champion the strengths and interests of each child, to cultivate a future poised for innovation, and to foster an academic world where every child's abilities are recognized and nurtured.

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Neurodiversity Advocacy and Awareness

Speaker 1 0:04

Welcome to the SJ Child Show , where a little bit of knowledge can turn fear into understanding . Enjoy the show .

Speaker 3 0:28

We know that millions of talented neurodivergent individuals are struggling in the workplace . My name is Jeannie Love . I'm a neurodiversity consultant . From small businesses to Fortune 500 companies , we are addressing barriers and creating empowering environments for all minds to thrive . Whether revising job descriptions and HR policies or providing education to managers , let us customize a strategy to support a high functioning culture in your workplace . Reach out and schedule .

Speaker 1 0:59

This episode is sponsored by Genie Love Neurodiversity Coaching wwwgenielovecoach . That's genielovecoach .

Speaker 2 1:20

Hi and thanks for joining the SG Child Show today . Hi and thanks for joining the SJ Child Show today . I'm really looking forward to getting into this conversation , because I've been checking and watching a little bit and seeing Mr Zarensky Is that how I pronounce it ? Do I pronounce it right , matthew Zarensky , Zekreski ? Oh , my goodnessy , don't let me go and do that today . Thank you so much for being here , though , because you know , I think that we found each other on LinkedIn , and it's it's so refreshing when we can find unique individuals that we have the same passion for the community , um , and just kind of have a wonderful conversation . So thank you so much for being here today .

Speaker 4 2:06

Oh my gosh . Well , thanks for having me . It's , you know . I mean , you know , thank goodness for LinkedIn , right , we get to have all those fun connections that you know . I don't think our paths would have necessarily crossed otherwise , but you're , you know , your unrelenting positivity and genuine humility around this work is just so . It's the sort of thing that ingratiates people . It's why you have such a big following and I'm like , well , that's a thing I can be a part of . Let's do that . So .

Speaker 2 2:36

Yeah , excellent . No , I'm so glad that you reached out and tell us a little bit about yourself and where are you at in the world anyways .

Speaker 4 2:45

So I'm in Northwest New Jersey . I grew up here in New Jersey , then moved to North Carolina for college , then Boston for a while , then Philadelphia for a decade , and now I'm back home and I've also lived in Australia for a little while . Yes , I have , you know , I'm an accent melting pot and yeah , I mean , I was diagnosed as ADHD and gifted growing up and so I always said that if I ever got to go and do mental health work , I wanted to work with kids like me . Now , luckily for me , as I finished up grad school , the neurodiversity movement is exploding and we're having these conversations that , frankly , we should have been having a lot earlier . But we are now right and you know I get to be , you know , a part of that movement and educate professionals and parents and kids and help do what I can .

Speaker 2 3:48

I love that too and it's such , like you said , the community , the awareness I mean .

Speaker 2 3:55

There's still a long way to go in a global setting , but here in the US we really have come so far and we're really hedging the way to get to a better place in the future , especially for our younger generations that really need us to be pioneers and leaders in this day to day and figure out a way to educate and help people understand the accommodations that are coming to fruition in their future . Yeah , you know , just yesterday I'm not sure if you saw the CDC had announced and put out a report that one in 11 children in the US now have autism , an intellectual disability or a developmental disability . One in 11 . That is just such a high number to you know 20 , 30 , 40 , 50 years ago , when it was what ? One in 150,000 , and maybe not in the entire scope of intellectual and developmental , but what a unique part and era of life right now that we have this perspective and this scope of perception to be able to identify and really help these kids that just need different support systems than the world has known in the past .

Speaker 4 5:34

Yeah , I mean , and that's the thing , and one of the things that is scary is the number one in 11 is right , I think at some point you reach critical mass where these kids aren't one-offs anymore , they are a large community of people where it's like you can't , you know , if you're large enough , you can't be ignored , right .

Speaker 4 5:55

And I think that's why we're changing the dialogue around this , where it's not just , oh , build a special school and shuffle them off over there . You know you can do that when there's 10 kids , maybe even a hundred kids , but if there's a hundred thousand kids , then it , then the idea is how do we build the systems that we have to accommodate more people who are not neurotypical and you know , and not from a place of curative , right , but from a place of meeting them , where they are in , accommodating , and that's I mean , you know , that's what we do , right ? We try and bang that drum and say like , hey , they're not going anywhere . So it's on the stakeholders from , you know , the federal level , the state level , the local level , to say how can I open my doors wider for more kids who need to benefit from the systems I have ? And then you know that ball rolls downhill and gets bigger and bigger and bigger .

Speaker 2 6:51

Yeah , absolutely . Where do you think it should begin ? Like , do we start in our homes ? Do we start at a legislative level ? Like I know those are two huge different opposites right there . What is the best place to start ?

Speaker 4 7:10

Well , I think so much of that depends on personality , right ? I mean , I'm somebody where I'm very extroverted , so you could send me to the state house and I would talk to the senators and the governor and give them facts and figures and show them a pretty PowerPoint and probably change some hearts and minds . I'm good at what I do . But if you're someone who's introverted or socially anxious or the idea of public speaking gives you cold sweats , then that's probably not your thing . But that doesn't mean that you can't help , right , because the changes are granular and they're happening in all these different spaces .

Speaker 4 7:47

You know one of my favorite teachers that I work with . You know , she's the person in her school who makes sure every classroom in the building is as autism-friendly as it possibly can be , right , and that means applying for a grant to get , you know , led lighting not those awful fluorescent bulbs , you know . And it means , like , having doors that are easy open , right , just like the little things , right , and you know the I . You know she's not somebody who would feel comfortable with me even saying her name , right ? So I'm , you know so , person X , I , I . I will talk about you without mentioning she's not a spotlight seeker , right , and that's fine right . So you know , if you come into a strategy in your home that works and you can share that out on social media or create a podcast , other people benefit from that inclusion , right ? Because it's not just me versus the world , it's me and these other parents who kind of have it similar to me , and we can hold hands and march forward together . So make the change where you can . That's what I always say .

Speaker 2 8:53

Yeah , no , I completely agree . And you know , for us , at the very beginning of our , of our journey , it was , it didn't . I didn't have a podcast , I wasn't , you know , searching to lead a group of anyone .

Speaker 2 9:06

But I ate only my own children . But in that came the desire to teach the kids in my neighborhood and I started writing children's books and thought how can I engage and really embrace the minds of the children who are around my children to help them understand and better support my kids ? And I think just that intent of knowing that , you know , my son is , if he is in these circles of society , he , it is going to be a unique individual that's going to stand out and the better the people have around him the understanding of how to help and support him and be kind to him , then the better for all of us . You know , I think that sometimes I have this endearment for him due to the fact that he doesn't and I don't know this inside him directly or personally , but he has this essence of that . He doesn't things don't bother him , people's opinions or judgments , things like that Don't . He doesn't bother his mind with those types of ideas or thoughts . And what a beautiful way to move through the world , number one , without judging others around you and never judging yourself for one , because you don't hold those , those ideals you know , but at the same time so hard for other people that do have that capability to then use it with the best of their ability to be kind and to be inclusive and not to come from a space of judgment , of negativity , or , you know , and unfortunately , that all starts from what we teach them when they're very little and what they see and how we portray ourselves in the world .

Speaker 2 10:57

I was just on a call just a moment ago and I just had this flash of a memory of my mom and I at a camping trip and these group of down syndrome campers came up and my mom lit up with the most excitement and this love that you know , I was maybe four , four years old or something and warm , endearing , endearing heart . It it really um sunk in and it really had a deep meaning for me and which is what a skill that I've been able to cultivate , you know , now in the world , to just be like I want to love all of you . I'm sorry Some , some of you , aren't capable of letting me do that , but that's my desire . So it's , it's these things that we earn . We learn early on , the things that we teach early on . So , yeah , I really think that that's it's comes from so deep within us , you know .

Speaker 4 12:01

Yeah , well , let me end in and that it's the sort of thing that , like people , I think people are inherently kind and compassionate , right , and you know , if we strip out all the politics , if we strip out all the all the , you know the old thinking that still permeates , at the end of the day , it's a person , it's a kid , it's a human being who's saying , like , please give me what I deserve so I can navigate this world . And you know , I mean that's . I mean like , that calls to something fundamental in us , right , like , and it's something that I think about a lot in what I do , because , you know , I've always been someone who's really believes in equity rather than equality . Right , because if you give everybody the same thing , some people aren't going to fit . You've got to give everybody what they need , right , and if you have enough conversations about equity , it turns into justice , it turns into this isn't a conversation I have to have , it's a system I can opt into .

Speaker 4 13:03

Right , if I'm going to go to this school or I'm going to go to this amusement park or this sports game , then I know these systems are going to exist because of the people who came before us and pounded on those doors and wrote those emails , and you know , and , and I mean that we all stand on the shoulders of giants . And then the really cool thing is that you know so many people are going to stand on our shoulders and you know , well , I mean the essay , child , child . I mean that was . That was my wake up call ,

Supporting Neurodiverse Gifted Children

Speaker 4 13:31

right . I heard Dr Matt speak at a conference and he was like this is how you do it . I was like yes , and then they'll turn , you know they'll . We pass the baton on to them in ways that we can't even anticipate right now .

Speaker 2 13:43

It's so true , it's so true .

Speaker 2 13:45

And you know , interviewing some of the moms of autistics from the 60s and you know , and just hearing their stories of there was no community , there was no , and they were literally the pioneers of , you know , teaching the world about neurodivergence and really helping develop and nurture these , um , what we can now say safe communities to be in and things , but what an amazing journey that they had to endure and to go through to get us to where we're at today , and I love that you said that , because I hope that , in all of the 200 plus episodes of the show that you know , if I can help one individual or one family have an easier time navigating their ideas , navigating their mindset , it can change so many other people in that they , you know , communicate with and everything . So what a beautiful place and such a special thing to be able to do . Certainly , you know , as a gifted child and I also was gifted as a child Tell me , though , about kind of your experience . What type of support did you get back then and what did ?

Speaker 4 15:21

not very much . Yeah , and it's funny because the reason I , you know , call my practice in the neurodiversity collective , the reason I , you know , I say I'm a neurodivergent ally , is that giftedness is is a neurodivergence . Right , the brain is literally different . It actually has a lot more in common with the autistic brain than it does with a neurotypical brain . So so when I start those conversations , I think it moves us away from this like gifted as elitism thing that still is out there , like you just want your kid to go to Harvard . It's like , you know , if we got particle physics when they were four , I don't think preschool is the right move right now , like , ah , right , and so to me it's , I mean , it really is , support is everything .

Speaker 4 16:10

And you know , and I always say that gifted education is special education . It's just on the other end of the IQ spectrum , right , it's a tier three . You know , completely re-imagining the curriculum thing . It's like , well , we're really good at thinking about special education on the other side and we should never stop doing that . Right , I'm never going to advocate there's plenty of pie for everyone , let's all have pie , but it's the idea . It's like it's a fundamental change If you have a fourth grader who can do calculus subtraction is not going to really move the needle right . It's a fundamental change . That's why , like we get school administrators and school psychologists and teachers on board , that's like , hey , you're already doing this stuff , I just need you to do a little bit more of it in a different direction .

Speaker 4 16:55

And because most gifted education programming occurs in the regular classroom , right , it's not . Most districts don't have a nested program or its own school . Most districts have , you know , 25 kids in the classroom , one or two of whom are gifted or twice exceptional . So you've got to be able to layer in content to those kids in the classroom , one or two of whom are gifted or twice exceptional . So you've got to be able to layer in content to those kids in a way that doesn't disrupt everybody else's learning .

Speaker 4 17:19

Yeah , or you end up like a kid like me , where I would finish everything in three to five minutes and they would just let me doodle on any piece of paper I could find . So I got really , really good at doodling and that's super good at it , and , and that was kind of the best they could do , which you know was neither here nor there at this point I came out Okay , but it's something that now I can say to schools hey , there are so many more resources and they're free , and so , like , just do this and like , here's this thing that exists , you know , and that's why I share my PowerPoints and my slides so openly , because I want the policymakers to know what I know . Yeah , because then that trickles down to all those kids in those classrooms and they all benefit from better practices in education .

Speaker 2 18:09

Yeah , and that is so true . And you know for our um . Yeah , and that is so true . And you know for our home situation , of course , general education . And then to it was first grade that the principal said we don't have a first grade algebra teacher . So I'm sorry we're , this is something we'll have to , you know , pass on , and I was so disappointed in my school at the time , thinking how could you do this to us ? Why wouldn't you put in place a program ? Because he's not going to be the only child in existence that this is ever going to happen to , and if you have something in place now , you're going to be able to provide it . So far down the road , that never happened , unfortunately , and I really had to take it upon myself and homeschool this child and find resources , and a decade ago there wasn't as many resources available . There weren't as many online programs available . You know I had to settle for DVDs that I found and that would get scratched and everything right .

Speaker 2 19:27

Oh , my gosh , I mean , I had to buy so many different . Uh , we , we did a series called rock and learn , which paired learning with music , which was so easy for him to . He loved it , and so he just took the information in so quickly . Um , and you know , we learned very early on . He was reading at one and writing at two and at three . We recognized he had a photographic memory and I just , I mean , I was overjoyed by the thought of it because I had always loved early childhood education and development . But it did , you know , also surprise me when I found out how little support I could get for it and back then , how little was known about it and it , you know , guilty enough as it is . It wasn't until this year meeting the wonderful Harry O'Kelly and she introduced me wonderful Harry O'Kelly , and she introduced me .

Speaker 2 20:34

I know , and she's such like this angel , isn't she this guardian angel ? And she just said Sarah , there's this whole other community , there's this 2E community , there's this you know other gifted community . You need to be a part of this . And I said what , Like ? I've been building these autism communities for so long and I'm passionate about it . And here was this little side community that I hadn't even known that existed and I thought I was , you know , getting all this great knowledge and resources , but you never stopped learning and there's never a time when you stop looking for resources .

Speaker 4 21:13

Yeah , I mean , and that's exactly right , and it models for our kids lifelong learning , but also intellectual humility , right , I didn't know this thing and now I do , because I sought it out , I asked the right questions , I raised my hand and said I don't get it . And that's a powerful thing , because our kids who don't get that or aren't used to it , you know , I mean , you know you mentioned homeschool . I mean , the biggest change I've made in my career has been my thoughts on homeschool . I , when I started this , I was like homeschool , you know , and now I'm like , oh yeah , obviously , homeschool , it makes perfect sense , Right , Cause if you cannot find a thing , you build the thing and you build the thing makes sense , right . Because if you cannot find a thing , you build the thing and you build the thing right , and you know , and it's be like , oh , so you think all gifted kids should be homeschooled . It's like , no , right , I wasn't homeschooled

Transforming Education for Neurodivergent Students

Speaker 4 22:04

, I turned out fine . Right , there are kids who really need it , and for many reasons intellectual , emotional , social , psychological right .

Speaker 4 22:10

But once again it comes back to a question of equity Can you , you know , can this person get what they need ? And if they can't get it in the systems that exist , then we find somewhere else and there's nothing wrong with that problem , right ? If you go to a medical provider and you have a rare allergy and they can't treat that rare allergy , you're going to find a specialist , right ? We do this all the time in the medical community . I don't know why , with our neurodivergent kids , everyone's like , Ooh , but isn't that going to be weird ? Man , my kids are already weird .

Speaker 4 22:41

I want to give them the weird they need . You know , and you know I mean it really is . There are so many bright lights in our , in our shared field and Harry being , you know , a phenomenal example of that . You know , but really the vast majority of the people I come across are just like this is really hard . I have a piece of information for this broader puzzle of how to survive parenting a neurodivergent kid . Here it is share it with others and we all build each other up that way . I mean my style , my practice , is an allogamation of the hundreds of people I collaborate with and you know , and I hope I've given them a little bit of something too .

Speaker 2 23:24

Exactly , absolutely Well , and just having the space available , just being , like you said , humble enough and gracious to people to say I want to share what I do know and what's successful . I want to learn more . So , if you have some success stories , share them with me and then to really know that , not only gaining all of this information but really putting it into action , and that's kind of where , in your home and as a teacher , as a business provider , as an employer , that's where we really put into action and make things tangible for setting up the environment in the best way we can . For setting up the environment in the best way we can . What are some ideas that you might give to a school that you go into to do a presentation for ? What are some accommodations that you might ask them to provide ?

Speaker 4 24:27

So the first accommodation I often suggest is why are we doing it this way ? Right , and I ? Because I want people to start thinking curiously , I want people to start questioning that . You know , the most dangerous sentence in the english language is we've always done it that way , and so I usually use this example . It's like okay , so I'm gonna make one of you come up here and do a talk . And everyone like okay , but instead of you coming up here and giving a talk with a PowerPoint , I could also let you write a paper or take a chapter test . Which would you rather do ? And people are like oh , I'd rather write a paper , I'd rather take a chapter test . I'm an expert , I'd rather do a presentation .

Speaker 4 25:10

I'm like that simple exercise giving people two additional choices for assessment is just it's . It's a such a low energy way to give people more efficacy in how they demonstrate knowledge . We have to like their systems that exist require us to show what we know , but there's no reason we have to only do that one way . If you have a kiddo who has to do a science fair project and instead of running an experiment , they want to talk to an expert and illustrate that conversation , there's literally no reason why you can't do it that way . If we send learning through kids' interests and we adapt and differentiate based on their learning profile , everybody does better , they learn more , they engage deeper and they retain more . And that's what we sort of talked about before . The best practices in gifted education are just the best practices in education . I want to get this right , because you can't tell me there's a 11-year-old kid in Provo right now who would do a lot better talking about math if he could do a tangible demonstration to his peers . And this kid doesn't need to be gifted or autistic or dyslexic , he can just be neurotypical , but he would still do better if we played to his strengths and interests . If we played to his strengths and interests .

Speaker 4 26:36

Right , one of my , one of my favorite , one of my favorite things . You're just such a great example of this one of the teachers that I at one of the gifted schools I work with . He was like all right , guys , y'all love scratch , right , so I want you guys to make a video game in scratch over something from that you've read in your english class over the last year . And these are the kids who hate English . They're like oh , ela is the worst . They're like I can make a Tom Sawyer video game , all right .

Speaker 4 26:59

And then they're finding that they're rereading the books and they're finding pieces to make the game more interesting . It's like oh , where is Hannibal Missouri ? I got to look that up . And these kids are showing engagement and retention and application of knowledge , because we're moving past a world where you need to know all 50 us state capitals , right . We're moving to a place like why are those capitals there ? Why are they not other places ? What do you do with that information ? Right , boom , now we're thinking about the 21st century and creating kids that are prepared for the world that we are creating , not the world that is rapidly becoming antiquated yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 2 27:42

it is so hard too , because those systems have been in place for so long but they're not in there , they're , they're dust , and it's so interesting . Where do you think , do you see like an opening in the future where these things will start to come down ? I mean , I guess in other programs opening schools in this sort of manner ? How do we get our public school systems to agree and to understand and to make these changes ?

Speaker 4 28:22

Well , the number one thing we need to do and it's funny because I'm going to speak directly to all you parents out there is that we need to change , because every parent says , oh my gosh , play-based learning and oh my gosh , projects . Oh , that sounds great . And then , three months later , but what's their GPA ? I mean , are they going to get into Princeton , are they going to get into BYU ? And it's like guys , they're learning right . If you , if you stripped out grades right and just learn what you want to learn , we'll make sure you learned it right .

Speaker 4 28:58

Kids do better . Their mental health problems go down , their social skills go up and they end up in colleges that are actually better fits for them , rather than everybody racing to the top . Right , I've got kids that I work with who , yes , they're going to go to MIT because it's the right fit school for them . But the kids who get shoehorned into MIT are the kids who end up dropping out or having significant mental health challenges , because MIT is not for everybody . I'm a gifted adult , right . I'm a very smart person .

Speaker 4 29:30

I wouldn't last three minutes at MIT , right ? I mean , it's just not how my brain is wired , and there's nothing wrong with that . So , like you know , the parents need to change how we feel about it , because it's navigating that anxious burst of oh my gosh , is my kid going to have a GPA to get into university ? They're not going to have a traditional GPA , but they're going to have a portfolio of work that shows XYZ University . Wow , this kid has actually spent the 12 years of public education actually doing stuff , not just . And then the state capital of wisconsin is madison . Because , yay , that's gonna help you win pub quiz someday , but it doesn't help you get a job interview right so that's what we're trying to do right and parents need to change .

Speaker 4 30:18

And then and then and then , with the parents support , we start electing more school board officials and superintendents who are on the cutting edge of this kind of educational shift , and then they get the support right . So now we've got this sort of alignment of the administration , the parents and the teachers who already want to do this work . With those three things , listen , we can change the , literally change the world . And it's funny , I say this all the time I'm not an educator . Right , I teach a college class , right , but I don't have that public education background . Right , I understand mental health and I understand child development , but I have to be able to speak education to do my job .

Speaker 4 31:03

So I talked to a lot of teachers . I was like do I have this right ? Because I don't want to be wrong . And they're like absolutely , I'm like , let's go , because it feels organic . It feels like , you know , nobody went to college to get a teaching degree , to follow this book , this thick of how to teach a kid how to read . No single teacher who does that Right , but they're sort of forced to . If we can let go of the reins a little bit , invest in our trust in our teachers and then show that trust as parents . I mean so many good things are going to happen .

Speaker 2 31:38

Absolutely , and you know I love when parents can really again take accountability for their child going into the world and really start to hone in on what is my child's learning process look like . That doesn't have to be a job of teachers , it can be a job of parents , like parents can have enough interest in their child to try to understand what they're learning , and that is just in educating these parents , right . But there are different learning styles that you can help identify for your child with your child and help your teacher understand your child's teacher rather , so that they can better fit and suit their needs . And that doesn't that goes across all boards too Typical , neurodivergent everything . Every child has a different learning system and a different way that they intake and process the information , and the sooner and better that we can help identify for these teachers and schools , the better off we'll all be . I think , and yeah , and I love that we have , like you said , um , uh , things like I'm not really on um into , like watching videos .

Speaker 2 32:55

I think they're kind of intrusive , because I haven't chosen what I'm going to want to watch and it just plays at me and I'm like I don't really want to see that . Um , but I think it's great when you can find videos that are positive and these , you know a lot . That's what these kids are doing these days . Like we need to access kids where they're at and not where our grandparents were at , so are we need our world to . To address that correctly , you know . Let's access these kids here , where they're at today , in 2023 , not in 1954 , where they , like you said , took the ABC quiz on the states .

Speaker 4 33:37

I mean , that's and I think fundamentally what this leads into is a conversation about neurodivergence , where it's about what can you do and I'll meet you there , rather than why can't you ? X . That was the that I remember much more of the conversations about why can't you , why aren't you ? Much more so than like , oh , you're , you know , you're in third grade and you won an art competition against adults because you drew a bicycle safety campaign . That was amazing . And and they're like wait , you're an eight-year-old and you just won this art competition , all right , like yeah , yeah you know , and it's interesting .

Speaker 4 34:19

But it's all like why aren't you more organized ? Why aren't you ? Why don't you have more friends ? Why don't you ? Why aren't you in high school't you have more friends ? Why aren't you in high school already ? Why ? Why ? Why ? It's like hey , these are different brains that come with different strengths and different weaknesses and nobody would choose the struggles those things present with , right . I mean , I can't tell you how many kids I work with who would love to be able to just show up at a party or a bar , make a bunch of , do a little small talk , get a couple of phone numbers and go home right . But if that the idea that makes you have a panic attack , nobody would choose that . So we have to meet them where they are , and that is both inside the classroom and outside the classroom , and I think that's where a lot of people perhaps lose the plot a little bit .

Speaker 2 35:06

Yeah , and it really when they're , when we're talking about accommodating workplaces , you know , I think that it's it's very , very individual , of course , to one's own opinion and desire to be identified as whatever they they would like to be . It's there's this fine line between not giving the information due to your own ego or sensitivities , and then there's a fine line of wanting these accommodations , or needing these accommodations made for you , and being able to let go of that part of that ego and really be okay with the identity that you are portraying and that you're giving , and saying , hey , I have all of these amazing skills , but there is a place where I struggle and I'm going to need support in this place and I hope that you'll be able to do that as an employer or something like that . That needs to be normalized more .

Speaker 4 36:11

Very much . I mean couldn't agree more right Like that is , you know . I mean , if and it's sort of funny because it's the it's the inherent problem with going on a podcast or speaking at a conference is that you're sort of speaking to the converted right . I don't think too many people who are like like nope , education is just fine , are going to dial into this podcast . But we have these conversations to tell our community that they're not wrong , that they're not crazy , so that if the you know , now we have a piece of tangible evidence we've created that then trickles down to . Well , now I have a thing to show you right About why I think we should teach my kiddo different . And you know , and those things you know create that critical mass we talked about before .

Speaker 2 36:58

Mm-hmm , those communities where we can get our ourselves and our kids and you know ourselves and our kids and you know they can start meeting people with like-minded interests and things and really showing up for ourselves and showing up for them .

Embracing Neurodivergence and Individuality

Speaker 2 37:18

And you know , yeah , like I said , not being afraid . You know one of our quotes is a little bit of knowledge turns fear into understanding .

Speaker 1 37:28

Oh , I love that .

Speaker 2 37:29

That can go from children to senior , because children need that information . They're curious , they want to know that , like you said , they come with a kind curiosity . They don't come with hatred or judgment . They come with this kindness and this curiosity . They don't come with hatred or judgment . They come with this kindness and this curiosity .

Speaker 2 37:48

And the more that we feed them the correct information , the better they can deal with you know , take it with them and and and use it correctly . And , as far as you know , with older generations , the more we can help them to understand . But also be aware that not everybody is going to be at a place where they're going to want to understand or want to change their mind and , being okay with that , being able to walk away and saying that's okay , you know , I don't need to keep forcing my opinion on you to change your mind because I know you're neurodivergent , you don't , you know , kind of an idea I , I , I hear that happening and some people I know they're like I see you and they're like , no , you don't , you know , and I'm like it's okay . It's okay . Everybody will be on their own time and their own journey , but knowing that there are communities to come to , to have support , is huge today .

Speaker 4 38:48

I mean so huge . And you know , I mean it's one of my favorite things I say all the time is like there's so much value to knowing that your child is a zebra , not a weird horse . Yeah , it's wonderful . And do you know what it's wonderful ? Um , and do you know ?

Speaker 2 39:13

what um ? Do you know what the um , the word for a group of zebras is ? I , I can't remember .

Speaker 4 39:15

I used to yeah , so yeah , like you could call it a herd , right , and that's like , that's not really . I mean like technically that's true , but the other accepted word for it is a dazzle of zebras and we are a dazzle of neurodivergence . I say I mean like love , that wouldn't you rather be a dazzle 100 .

Speaker 2 39:41

You know it's funny . You said that in in a podcast . I did that about myself on someone else's show a long time ago . He asked me at the beginning how did you feel about yourself when you were nine years old ? What was your idea of who you were and everything ? And I said to him I was a unicorn who was always outside of everything , looking in , just prancing about doing my own sparkly unicorn thing , you know , and wasn't any any wiser of anything else . And then he asked you know well , how do you feel today ? And I was like now I have my own group of unicorns and we're all doing our own thing together and it's like I found this pasture with all these other people that I belong with . Um , but that is so true too . I love it A dazzle .

Speaker 4 40:27

Right and we can all be dazzled together and that is kind of beautiful and wonderful .

Speaker 1 40:33

Yeah .

Speaker 4 40:34

Right ? Then you don't spend your life as a parent or as a educational professional or mental health professional trying to cram a kid into a box that does not fit them . No , and you know , an example I often use for my clinical work is when we think about the asynchronous development of our kids , right ? My mentor , gene Peterson , always used to say each gifted kid is five kids , right ? So if you're a gifted teacher out there and you're like I , have only 10 kids in my class , why am I so exhausted ? It's because you have 50 kids in your class because of the different developmental levels , right ? So I have a nine-year-old on my caseload who is taking graduate courses in multivariate calculus .

Speaker 4 41:11

Now you might ask me what's that ? I don't know , so don't something involving numbers . But he can't tie his shoes . He hasn't developed the fine motor skills for that yet . So what do you think he has meltdowns about ? Right ? Not the calculus , right ? Like ? And he'll say to me how is it my brain works this well here and this well over here and like ? That's just the kind of brain you have , that's your neurodivergence . And I'm going to teach you how to tie your shoes , because I would be doing him and his family a disservice If I said well , I mean , shouldn't he know how to tie his shoes ? He's nine Gosh darn it . Yeah , immediately Right , and that's why you know , it's just , we meet them where we are and we do the best we can from that place .

Speaker 2 42:00

A thousand percent . I know that's not a thing , but I still say it Anyway . I I see that so often because same you know , along the same lines , dj , my sweet 13-year-old , who studies 133 languages and can identify and tell anyone what any language or number is and anything , still cannot tie his shoes and we would never make that anything that was a necessity or a level of importance . But , yeah , it's so important that you meet them where they're at and that you support them where they're at , because , although he does have this high , high intellectual capabilities and amazing things that he shows us , it's so hard for him to have social encounters , it's so hard for him to be . You know , he parallel plays rather than interacts with others , and I know that . I sense that he wants to get to know people , but people don't understand how to get to know him and that is something we're just going to have to keep working on right In our entire life of DJ , but we will . I'm dedicated to 100% to doing that for him .

Speaker 4 43:25

And the way I often frame it to people is that when we get stressed out , we opt into what we call top-down thinking , where we want things to be perfect or good and anything less than that is derivation , which is bad , right . So I wanted 100 on the test . I got a 94 . That brain goes oh , I got six points off , right . But if we flip that to bottom-up thinking , it gives us cumulative credit for everything we've done . So it's like I knew 94% of that . That's pretty awesome , right . So , like you know , dj , you know , I mean I think if you took a survey of most Americans , right , they might barely know one language , let alone what .

Speaker 2 44:03

I'm sorry , 133 yeah , until google translates is what he'll tell you .

Speaker 4 44:08

Until it updates of course , and that's the thing it's like , and you can tell I'm weird because , given what I do for a living , I'm like not surprised by that . I'm only going . That makes sense . That's a my weird universe . That's a normal thing for a kid to exactly go , right , um , but it's the sort of thing like . That's exactly it , like you know . You know why would we , you know , why would we lose the strengths for a developmental difference , right ? And so I always tell parents it's like when you're , when you're talking about your kid , it's and not . But , right , my kid knows 133 languages and he can't tie his shoes . Not , my kid knows 133 languages , but he can't because tying shoes , not . My kid knows 133 languages , but he can't because tying shoes has nothing to do with learning languages , right , unless , like , the farsi is written on the shoelaces . Somehow , I may , I don't know . I see I can't even make it work here we go , maybe that's what I need .

Speaker 4 45:00

Yeah , we unlocked it .

Speaker 2 45:02

There we go , oh that's great , you know and I always tell parents that too and I , you know , mean this with all due respect to all families and everyone out there that in just this is just a very general idea that I have . But your kid has their whole life to eat a sandwich if they want to . Your kid has their whole life to sit on the toilet , and your kid has their whole life to learn how to tie their shoes on the toilet , and your kid has their whole life to learn how to tie their shoes . And it doesn't have to be within these time constraints that society has put forth hundreds of years ago for our great grandparents to be able to make it through the depression . It is now 2023 and we can put our slip-ons with no shoelaces on and go about in the world , and we're just fine . So let's take advantage of the things that we have and not take it for granted All of those other things either . But really , yeah , move into today , people .

Speaker 4 46:01

I mean , I read a book recently where it's like kids today can't read a map And'm like they don't have to . There's a system of satellites that tells us where to go that is infinitely more accurate than a map would ever be . And what if the satellites go down ? Well then probably any mp has gone off and we've got different problems . Right , yeah , like it's just . It's so once again , the most dangerous word it sends in the english language . We've always done it that way . If you want to learn to read a map , go with God . My child Do it . That's awesome . But to say a kid is less than for not having learned a map is like why would we teach our kids how to use a typewriter now ? I mean , the technology has passed it . You mentioned DVDs before . I'm not going to collect DVDs anymore .

Speaker 1 46:49

Exactly Right .

Speaker 4 46:50

I have nine streaming services that I somehow pay more for than cable , but that's a different level . But it's this sort of thing like . The world is changing and we must change with it , and it's scary because you are really building the plane as you fly it . It's scary because you are really building the plane as you fly it , and that's why we've got to support each other and show up for each other and and cheer each other , because it's there are people who get to fly the planes that are already built and that's awesome for them , our kids , they need their own planes and we've got to do it right . I wouldn't wish this on anybody , but you better believe I'm going to support you with all my heart to get you there .

Speaker 2 47:32

Absolutely . I think we could just talk for hours and hours and hours . We're just going to make the longest podcast ever .

Speaker 4 47:42

I've seen some of those jokes .

Speaker 2 47:45

you know he can go on for hours , those ones , those five-hour podcasts . But it's been so great to catch up with you and get to know .

Speaker 4 47:53

you Tell everybody where we can go to support you and to find out how to get in contact with you . So the website for my practice is the neurodiversity collectivecom , and if that's too much of a mouthful , just punch my name into Google , because I have a very unique name . I'm like the whole first page of Google now . I'm very proud of that . Um and uh , we have a really fun Facebook community . Uh , facebookcom slash Dr Matt Sokreski .

Speaker 4 48:23

Um , you know , it's a little bit of science , a little bit of mental health , a lot of nerd humor . We love the nerd humor and , honestly , you know , I haven't been to Utah since I was 13 years old and my dad got kicked out of the Mormon tabernacle , which is a funny story I'll tell you some other time . You know it was like oh look , dad , you're the one who pissed off the Mormons . Oh , that's hilarious . And so I would love to come back to Utah and speak to a school or speak to a community , because it's like you know , so many of the kids that we both serve have that overlap

Equity and Strengths in Education

Speaker 4 49:02

right . So all kids benefit from the things we're talking about . Meeting , you know meeting , where they are talking about equity , focusing on strengths and interests . I mean , every kid benefits from that . So if you need an expert or experts , right , because kill them with kindness and science . And then they're like , ah , we have to change everything we're doing . We're like , yes , that's right , good job , and everybody wins , cause I like when everybody wins .

Speaker 2 49:33

I love that . Oh , thank you so much . This has been such a great conversation and I just um , yeah , I , I don't want to stop , but I'm going to just let our listeners take a little break . But why don't we invite you back on in the future so we can catch up with you again ?

Speaker 4 49:52

If you insist . I do Not that . That would be terrible . So thank you until we do it again , but this was so much fun . Thanks for having me .

Speaker 2 50:03

Yeah , thank you so much and I look forward to staying in touch .

Speaker 1 50:08

All right , bye .