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THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
🎙️ Welcome to The SJ Childs Show Podcast! 🎉
Join Sara Bradford—better known as SJ Childs—as she bridges understanding and advocacy for the neurodivergent community. This podcast shines a light on autism awareness, empowering stories, expert insights, and practical resources for parents, educators, and individuals alike.
Brought to you by The SJ Childs Global Network, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting autistic individuals and their families worldwide, this show is your weekly dose of inspiration and actionable ideas. Visit sjchilds.org to learn more about our mission, find resources, and connect with our growing community.
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THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
Episode 312-The Twice Exceptional Journey: Understanding Giftedness and Autism
Discovering you're twice exceptional—both gifted and neurodivergent—can be transformative, especially when diagnosed as an adult. In this fascinating conversation, Sara welcomes authors Deb Gennarelli and John Truitt to explore the complex world of twice exceptionality (2E) through their book "Navigating Neurodiversity."
John shares his remarkable journey of being diagnosed at 45 as both gifted and on the autism spectrum with dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalculia. Unlike many narratives in the neurodiversity space, John describes a childhood where he excelled socially, becoming a class leader who dated "pretty, smart girls" and never experienced bullying. Yet his academic experience reflected classic 2E patterns—excelling tremendously in certain subjects while struggling inexplicably in others, facing accusations of laziness despite his obvious intelligence.
Deb brings her 30+ years of expertise as a gifted intervention specialist, explaining how twice exceptional students often fall into three categories: those whose gifts outshine their challenges, those whose challenges mask their gifts, and those who appear deceptively "average" when their exceptional abilities and struggles effectively cancel each other out. This insight proves crucial for parents and educators trying to identify and support 2E children.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as John discusses workplace struggles that led him to entrepreneurship. "I've tried to fit into the office environment... it just doesn't work for me," he explains, articulating a common experience among highly capable neurodivergent adults. He poignantly observes the irony that many historical figures who shaped our modern world—from Einstein to Steve Jobs—were likely twice exceptional themselves: "It baffles me sometimes that we create the very world that we're not accepted in."
Whether you're a parent of a 2E child, an educator, or someone discovering their own neurodivergent traits, this episode offers invaluable insights into navigating the beautiful complexity of twice exceptional minds. As John powerfully states, "I don't want to be cured, I want to be understood."
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season. Join Sarah Brafford and the SJ Childs Show team as they explore the world of autism and share stories of hope and inspiration. This season we're excited to bring you more autism summits featuring experts and advocates from around the world.
Speaker 2:Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3:Just wanted to give you an update. The second annual International Autism Summit was such a success. Thank you to our sponsors and our amazing speakers. If you're interested in seeing any of those sessions, go to my YouTube channel, the SG Child Show the live tab and you can see each day and their sessions are timestamped in the description. Hope to see you guys there.
Speaker 4:Hi and welcome to the SG Child Show today. I'm really really thrilled to bring two incredible guests which how exciting is that? You guys you know normally get to hear me just have one conversation back and forth, but we're going to have a wonderful trifecta conversation today with my guests, deb and John, and I'm an autism summit in the past and this last you would. You would have seen Harry's name all up and down in that comment section just giving accolades and credit and connections. She's just a master of connections. So, yes, love that. Deb, thank you so much for your time and for being here today. Tell us a little bit about yourself and introduction and then John will jump right into you.
Speaker 5:Okay, well, sarah, thank you so much for having John and myself on your podcast. We're very excited to talk to you about our book, navigating Neurodiversity. My background is as a gifted intervention specialist for over 30 years in public and private schools and I worked with gifted and twice exceptional students and that included not just working with the students but their families, helping them navigate really tough situations in schools where often the child was not being serviced correctly and it led to a lot of issues or challenges for the child. So that is where my passion is. I've left the classroom after 40 years and now I'm a gifted ed 2E consultant with my company, smart Strategies. I've written a book on twice exceptional boys and then I met and made a lifelong friend with John Truitt and that's how we wrote Navigating Neurodiversity.
Speaker 4:Oh, I love that and, john, I'm just honored that you are here today and looking forward to getting to know you better. Tell us a little bit about how it started for you, your background.
Speaker 6:It's kind of hard to pick a place to start, but in 19,.
Speaker 4:You know, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 6:No, so I'm currently 52. I was diagnosed at 45 as twice exceptional, so gifted also on the spectrum, as well as dyslexic dysgraphia, dyscalculia. But I have advanced strengths in applying math. So I calculate math at the 10th grade level and I apply it at the grad school level, which is a real fun one if you can imagine going through school with that one.
Speaker 6:But yeah, so I had a very different experience than most. I was never bullied in school. I was often a class leader, played sports, dated, you know, pretty girls, pretty and smart girls and kind of had a very different experience. The one I can relate to that's very common with twice exceptionality is I got the try harder or you're being lazy because I'm blowing it out of the, you know, off the chart in an AP honors English class, yet I'm struggling in algebra. So I had that real imbalance.
Speaker 6:But very long story short went to a really good boarding school in the Southeast, came back to go to university, went for a year and a half, decided to join the army, became a combat medic in the army, came back out. My dad and grandfather are both doctors and they had kind of a business side of medicine that I won't go into but got into that. Ended up in Australia at 29, listing a company on the stock exchange, a medical device company. Relocated to CEO of that in the US, got really tired of corporate and very much related to 2E. I wasn't bullied as a kid but I guess if you would call it bullying or I would call it duping, that really happened to me a lot in the boardroom I'd be the one that does all the work and has all these creative ideas and implements these strategies. Yeah, and I would get kudos verbally. But then you go and look at the packet and I'm like, well, why Not to say I wasn't making great money? But I would look at it and go, wait a minute, what compared to that what I've done.
Speaker 6:So that really started to take me off. Started my own business they're sleep and snoring diagnostic and therapy companies. Started that in Dallas. Got three pretty significant clinics up, kind of moved to Durango to semi-retire. I had the last business turn unfavorably financially so kind of took a little bit of a period there in 2018. Got diagnosed, spent a lot of time with my psychologist, seeing other patients with him. Really got you know, really went super deep. Met Deb. Wrote the book we co-authored that taught two kids for about a year and a half and then six months ago started with another startup. So I'm in about a month, two and a half of operations on a brand new startup that we're doing here in Denver.
Speaker 4:Welcome to the life of serial entrepreneurship, as I like to call it for myself.
Speaker 6:And I can't do it any other way. I've tried to fit into the office environment. I know there's lots of things that can be done. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work for me. I'm not a control freak, but I do have to have a full view of the company to be able to, instead of just, hey, you're in operations, I need to see finance operations, marketing, and you just, unless it's your business, you just don't really have the opportunity to do that and you just, unless it's your business, you just don't really have the opportunity to do that, yeah.
Speaker 6:So yeah, I definitely I can. That's another thing I can relate to the workplace struggles with the quote unquote high functioning, twice exceptional person. I can very, very much empathize with that.
Speaker 4:And I think it's great that you have this different perspective, because you're right, I think that oftentimes it is kind of the story of the struggling bullied child or whatnot, not that that isn't, you know, relevant and doesn't truly happen, more than not. But I think it's always important to have the other side. For those that can relate to that side of life, like my husband and I, for example, a lot of the same things resonate, you know, throughout our lives, and especially finally when we found each other and we're able to have this incredible intelligent conversation with someone finally and thought, oh my God, here you are, finally, but how did you two come to meet and what did it look like? Kind of meeting the minds and deciding a book.
Speaker 6:From my end, deb obviously needs to give her side of that. But from my end I had decided that I very much wanted to write a book and I was looking on LinkedIn. I do a lot on LinkedIn, I believe Deb does as well and we just came across each other and I sent her an email and said hey look, you know, here's kind of a very brief synopsis of what I have going on and what I want to do. Would you like to co-author a book? And her immediate response was I just finished one. And her immediate response was I just finished one. But no, we connected there, immediately, hit it off and kind of understood. Obviously, with her extensive background and twice exceptional education, she knew how to communicate with me and it was yeah, I don't think it really I couldn't have done it by myself because of the lack of structure, and I don't think I could have done it with someone who didn't have an in-depth, thorough background with that. So that's my side, deb Go.
Speaker 5:Right. Well, you know, as John said, when I opened that LinkedIn message and at first I thought this is a parent reaching out to me to talk about their two-week child, because the business that I have now, sarah, is is that, you know, parents contact me from around the world. But then when I messaged him back, I realized he's he's talking about himself. So we actually got on the phone and I told him yes, I've, I just finished a book, it just got published, and to sit down and write another one, it's a year or more process from start to finish, and then you have to go through trying to have it published, and that could go on for months. So I was like, oh, I don't know if I'm ready for this, but it took me, I think, two conversations with John and I was all in on and I was all in. He just, you know, as he told you his short summary of his life, I was just so in awe. I just thought I have to get to know this man better and his story needs to be told. I think it.
Speaker 5:He and I both agreed and he certainly was the first in the place to say you know, there are not a lot of resources out there on adults that are twice exceptional. When I first started my career in gifted ed, there weren't a lot of books on giftedness. Now there are a plethora of them and even twice exceptionality and organizations like SANG, and then things that we talked about Harry O'Kelly, and there are a lot of people out there doing some great work but there weren't a lot on adults. So I was like two thumbs up and John and I dove in and it was. It was just a phenomenal experience. You know, I'm used to being the teacher, although my students have always taught me the most, but John taught me more than I ever helped him with. You know, it was just amazing, an amazing experience. I said it was a gift from God, but I love that connection.
Speaker 4:It was really. It really was too. I mean, I'm sure that it was. You know, somehow I am not religious but very spiritual. I think that we timing it's all about kind of timing, and the right things happen at the right times. They you can't force them, they don't, then they don't fit and they don't work. And oh, I know that feeling, john. What is your passion behind? What do you want people to get out of the book?
Speaker 6:Well, first of all, just a broader understanding that TUI exists. That's kind of. The first thing is like this is what twice exceptionality is. The second thing is, unlike you know, they used to say in autism that it goes away. Right, the only kids have autism. It never goes away.
Speaker 6:And that being twice exceptional, I view it very much as something to accept and just acknowledge, and I'm not like a real lefty kind of person and I know that like words, like you know, oh, and that can sound all fruity. No, I just mean it's very simple. If I were to condense it into a sentence is I don't want to be cured, I want to be understood. And I see, in the autism community I'd love to talk some RFK with you later on if we have time. But but within the autism community I don't really put the split where you know the DSM does to. To me that's just really it's not not what it is.
Speaker 6:I think DSM four had it right when they had what used to be called Asperger's, which which often twice exceptionality kind of put them on the side. So I really don't look at it along those lines. I look at it along a cure or accept line. So you have, you have parents of quote unquote low functioning, and I hate that term. Even you know nonverbal kids who they like you said that believe it's a gift from God and they love every moment of it. I understand there are a lot of parents on that side of the spectrum that don't and can understand. I can understand, as a parent myself, why they would be seeking a cure because it presents itself as a pathology. I'm very much on the other side of it with, regardless of where the child or adult adult is on the spectrum, it's to me that's the delineator is do you want to be cured or do you want to be accepted?
Speaker 4:yeah, there's a big um, a big divide where it comes to inclusion and belonging, and I think that that's um a big kind of everybody. We all just want to belong and that we can be included. But that doesn't mean that we still belong there and that doesn't mean we're feeling like we belong there. And I'm saying we cause I also am late diagnosed. I'm not speaking out of place here, but and when our you know I grew up as my parents didn't, they were business and career minded. I was an only child and for them it was just keep her at school and after school programs, keep her busy. You know that was it. There was no actual oh, she is gifted. What we could do, this, we could do so much more. It was just kind of. You know, here's the bottom line, good luck. My dad always used to say keep your nose clean, good luck. See, you know he was in the military, so that's it. And so, yeah, I think oftentimes, as for me, you know that, building that independence quite early and then also having that struggle of not ever being understood or feeling like I belonged, even though I didn't struggle with, you know, making friends, it would look like to to others, but you know, my mom would always say to me why don't you, why aren't you friends with these group of girls, why aren't you this, why aren't you that? And there was always a deficit of of what you were, you know, the extra, extra drama queen. That's what it was and I, and so I love that.
Speaker 4:Today, when people talk about disclosure and talk about diagnosis and things, I am so, you know, on the side of independence and freedom in having it and then getting the support and then not having this other who you might be, that society decides are these degradating? You know associations with you, hibernating. You know associations with you, but it's really tricky. But my son so I never knew anything, but our son was quickly understood. He was reading at one and writing at two and there was not a doubt in any. You know, there was no doubt in my mind, but there was in everyone else's, and so it's just. It's so important that we kind of get the highlight and the spotlight on 2E individuals. So let's kind of break this down for listeners that might not even know now what we're talking about. Deb, what is the 2E definition? If you will? How would you describe that for our listeners?
Speaker 5:Right. So, sarah, twice exceptionality refers to an individual that is gifted by. There are many definitions of giftedness. In the United States, giftedness is one who works well above, if you want to say academically, if we're talking about school age well above their same age peers. As you said, your son was reading, you know well, before entering elementary school. You know I have clients who have children that are four years old doing math at sixth grade level. So a twice exceptional student is gifted, or twice exceptional adult is gifted. And then there's some learning difference or differences, as John mentioned. It could be dysgraphia, dyslexia, autism, it could be combination.
Speaker 5:The interesting thing about identifying twice exceptional students in schools is that there's three categories. One is that the giftedness shines right through and so the child comes into school and they're so bright and teachers are like oh, what you know, my goodness, this child is, is doing this so, so advancedly and so easily and doesn't need repetitions of the skill work. And what do I do with him or her? But the learning difference doesn't show itself readily. And then there's the child who the learning difference is, right out in front, glaring, and the teacher or adults in that child's life don't even realize that the child is gifted and I've had many students in that category.
Speaker 5:When the child was identified by a school district as gifted, the parents and or teachers and or administrators went gifted what I never would have thought he or she was gifted. So that learning difference and those behaviors that kind of come with that really overshadowed the giftedness. And then the third category are those children who the giftedness and learning differences really kind of just cancel each other out. The child appears average, quote, unquote, average in the classroom. So as the child gets older in school and, for example, the grades start dropping because they have either a language difference you know writing is difficult, reading is difficult or math is difficult, then it's like wait a minute, why is this just showing up now? So eventually it kind of presents itself. But that third category, those children just look like they're average, not gifted, don't have learning differences, just send them on through, don't have learning differences just send them on through.
Speaker 4:You know Absolutely, John, what is some advice you like would like parents to look for no-transcript.
Speaker 6:Well, I think very early what parents need to look for and this doesn't contraindicate anything. But there's the classic mold of okay, your child was developing until two, then went nonverbal. So that's what autism is. No, I mean I was, and Deb and I go into this in depth in the book. She interviewed a lot of my family and friends. I never crawled, I went straight to walking. I was speaking in complete sentences at roughly nine months old. Similar with the reading I was reading in kindergarten.
Speaker 6:I was reading at the sixth or seventh grade level and I said I was dyslexic and I found out this is actually fairly common on the spectrum. And I found out this is actually fairly common on the spectrum. You start off as hyperlexic. So I was hyperlexic. And then, as far as reading, reader, but I comprehend 98, 99% of it, which is obviously really high. I do not have a photographic memory. I do have an associative memory. So when we're talking about something that I remember, essentially movies pop into my head and I can kind of roll and watch them, but it's not the type of thing you know. Wait a minute, page 600 of Tolstoy, it says exactly this. It's not that it's very associative. But what I'd like you to know, is really that big difference that if they're seeing those developmental milestones happen quickly, it's not only this is the kid gifted. In my opinion, it's very, very likely they're twice exceptional.
Speaker 4:Oh, absolutely, and I love when you're saying that because I it's when you know and you can see in your family and be able to give the support's 15 now, and we really aren't doing anything specific, but we'll get to that. But when Harry told me about this community that existed, of all of these twice exceptional parents and people, and I had built this community in the autism world, if you will, for a decade and it was really so eye-opening and just this, like, oh my gosh, there's another community that we are part of that we didn't even know we had all of these friends that we could, you know, relate to and have these ideas from, because there's not many conversations you can have with a person who understands, you know, and not in my case, but for DJ, like what it was like to, like John, you know, be doing algebra in first grade. That's why we were turned away from public school and that's why they said we can no longer help you. We don't have algebra for first graders, like, and I remember we were, you know, went to a specialized autism school, um, and DJ has developmental delay and there's. So there's a lot of differences as far as, like his rep, uh, reciprocity is hardly at all, and so it's tricky and there's a hard. It's hard to know how to measure, I guess, those types of things.
Speaker 4:But, like John said, he actually has a photographic memory, so the way we were able to see it was in the recreation of the things that he was showing us so that we could help get him to sport. But what a hard journey it was when he was little and no one believed us essentially. You know, we went to the pediatrician and said oh my gosh, he's reading, he's doing this. And the guy said that's ridiculous. Like he's not making eye contact, he is not verbalized, you know, making the verbal cues that he should be making, he is not pointing like these are the things. And I was like no, no, no, no, no, but he's reading. You know, I had a totally different view of this. I guess that's why it's a good thing he's my kid.
Speaker 5:I will say, sarah, it's, it's super important. You, you know your child best and to advocate for him or her. It's. It's challenging, especially when you come up against professionals like medical professionals or educators, administrators, who you really you assume and we get in trouble when we assume. But when you assume that they understand what you're talking about and you assume that they're going to believe you. And so I again, when I taught, as well as now, I see your situation all the time, and so that's where it's really important to be an advocate and and give them the right language, the right questions to ask and really help them navigate, like I said early on in the podcast, to navigate those very tricky waters that you, as a parent, experience with a two-week kid, exactly.
Speaker 4:And, john, I really respect and appreciate what how you talked about kind of workplace, because I think that I just, you know, had this really great summit and some of my advocates are twice exceptional and they really do have some struggles in the workplace and have a hard time understanding why in the workplace and have a hard time understanding why, like, I have two master's degrees and you can't keep me employed, like what you know, and I hear this all the time from them and so I really appreciate that you shared that part of it. Is there mentors or anything in that kind of early time that helped you understand? Early time that helped you understand, like to grasp onto things and, you know, get into a better situation?
Speaker 6:Well, I was never in a bad situation. I was never in a bad situation and again, kind of like being twice exceptional. And Deb can comment on this my life. If I were just a normal neurotypical and you looked at my life, it's kind of like, oh my God, really, my dad, who, as I mentioned, was a clinician I'm trying to do this without getting into all kinds of details but self-limited his medical practice to a certain type of specialty and started lecturing all over the US and then all over Europe so I forget the exact Deb from the book, but I think it was by age 10,.
Speaker 6:I've been to 40 states, however many different you know places, predominantly in Europe, and I tell you that, to tell you, those were my mentors. They were the doctors. They were you know the doctors that learned all the clinical stuff from the sales reps that would come to you know display on sales booths. I hung out with them. I learned how to not just sell but really run a sales team, hearing from them what they liked about their boss and didn't like about their boss. So everything with me. It's very, very hands-on, very hands-on learning.
Speaker 6:Later in my career I ended up during the IPO. I went straight into the C-suite as the chief marketing officer. So again, it was like starting my own business. I didn't have to go through that corporate ladder and I found that when you're particularly in a startup, particularly a publicly held startup, people don't care. They don't care where you went to school, they don't care if you're quirky, it's basically if you can get it done. And when you're dealing with that very top echelon of people, they love teaching and I love asking questions. So that's really kind of how I developed, you know, going through that whole thing and again in school pardon me, unlike what happened with you, that they didn't believe or anything else I come from a small Texas town. Fathers are really well-known doctor, grandfathers are really well-known doctor. There was never any doubt of like am I intelligent or not? And a couple of quick things. Which is funny, my discography obviously started displaying, you know, presenting very early. Well, the reason John has bad handwriting is he's going to be a doctor. I love that One second.
Speaker 4:I actually worked in both medical and legal, so I completely like appreciate that so much.
Speaker 6:So yeah, so that was kind of on the okay right side, but the other part of it it was before all these testing of teachers where let's test the teacher on how many students pass. They could actually teach and I'm pretty positive. Some of my elementary school teachers probably went to normal college, right. I mean, these weren't folks with master's degrees from you know Harvard, but they knew kids and they didn't know what to label somebody like me, but knew how to deal with it and like, for example, I love, and I still am, a voracious reader. And then we talked about these, the SRAs. I don't know what they call them now. Back in the day they were SRAs which were these little. What would it be?
Speaker 6:Little pamphlets stories Laminated pamphlet and it's a short story. At the end you answer the questions from the comprehension. I love them. So I would finish my work in class and my teachers would be like I mean, there's a box of these things like a huge.
Speaker 5:Yes, they're color coded. They go up in level. You just keep going.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I would just rip through them. So that was a positive way. You know, and I think it's one of the reasons I probably didn't get distracted and get in trouble in elementary school for acting out was because they always had something else for me to do. As soon as I'd finish something, they'd have something else and we just, you know and it wasn't you know go to recess and hang out. It was, hey, let's do something constructive. So again, a little bit of a different experience there.
Speaker 6:But commenting quickly back onto the travel and again we speak about this in the book I cannot understate to the parents of twice exceptional children how imperative travel and touching things are, and I realize everybody doesn't have the money to do what I was able to do, but I mean one well-organized trip to Washington DC running through the Smithsonian's, you know, going through all those. If you can't do that, just even online, you can't touch it. But to go through it together and see that you know, going through all those. If you can't do that, just even even online, you can't touch it. But to go through it together and see that you know those experiences, yeah, I mean it's. I think it's a huge key to why I've been able to be successful navigating the world of neurotypicals. I love that.
Speaker 4:I did a lot of traveling as a child too, because my dad was in the military he was an F4 pilot so we did a lot of traveling as a child too, because my dad was in the military he was an f4 pilot, so we did a lot of traveling to other places cool I really I think that the I'm just gonna be a little um.
Speaker 4:I think that the level of education, that and drive that sounds like both of our parents had was it was definitely a gift to both of us. And you know, I remember when you were talking about the mentors and the people that you would hang around, my mom was a nurse, so she was always with all of the doctors and I remember that situation, but I was always down at the guard and I was always down with all of the other guardsmen and you know I just saw that he was the commander of the guard at the time and so just to see, kind of the how it was ran. So I don't know why I never went into the military. I think that I, just as soon as I could, I was like run. You know that's a whole nother podcast episode, but you know, I think that having those having the travel like I wish that we had more means to travel with DJ and let's just put it out there it's going to happen in the future. I'm just universing that right now Because he actually is a.
Speaker 4:He loves linguistics and he does several and he doesn't speak um, like I don't think he can have a conversation with anyone in the multiple languages that he actually has memorized, but he could identify, like, the text of it or, if he heard it, he could, uh, translate what the person was saying. Um, so it's interesting just to to find somebody who can appreciate what that means, because even just going I'm in salt lake city, utah even just going downtown and walking and going past some of the cathedrals that have, like the you know written roman and and things like that and and it's so fun to just let him discover and, like you said, to touch things, it's so important.
Speaker 6:The tactile part is very important and that's actually something I can very much relate with. I'm the same with languages. I don't speak multiple languages, but particularly within the Romance languages some Greek, but predominantly Latin I just kind of automatically break stuff down. I can't explain how it works, but I can look at something and go, okay, well, and it won't be verbatim reading it, but it's enough to glean the context of what they're talking about. And then, as I was a little kid just learning, you know, like in second grade, learning more advanced vocabulary like omnipotent Well, I knew omnium and everything Potent is potent, omnipotent. Like omnipotent well, I knew omnium and everything potent is potent, omnipotent, omnipotent. Got it, thanks, right. So kind of breaking stuff down like that. Again, it's hard to kind of verbalize, but yeah, that's how in my mind's eye it works yeah, absolutely deb, what are you?
Speaker 4:what are you working on now? As like going and getting the book out, of course, to the people who need it. Isn't that the hardest and most important part?
Speaker 5:It really is. You know, john and I have done podcasts together. We've done separately. I do a lot of professional development. I do a lot of professional development and my focus again is trying to help teachers understand these that. But then when they see how successful mentorships are for these TUI students, it's like eye opening.
Speaker 5:One of the boys I wrote about in my first book he was so advanced but had a language difference, language learning difference and but he by fourth grade he wanted to be an attorney. So we found a gentleman, a parent in our district, who volunteered in different capacities with his children's district, our district, and he came. I asked him and he came in one day every two weeks and sat for over an hour with my student and they just had conversations about immigration law with my student and they just had conversations about immigration law. And this is a nine, 10 year old boy who when you sat in the conference room where they were talking, it was like two old law buddies, you know, and their conversations. So that hour that he spent with a mentor was much more valuable than sitting in a spelling language class. Or let's say, you know he was super advanced in math. So that's what we took him out of and then we we upped his math, you know, the other four days a week. So, and when I say up the math, what I mean is he was working at an advanced level and a lot of times I was his teacher of record.
Speaker 5:But getting back to getting books out there and having conversations, it's just a lot of networking. Sarah, as you know, and so you know, when I met Harriet at saying social emotional needs of gifted and I was speaking about twice exceptional boys she and I just connected because she has a very gifted boy who's going to college in West Virginia, close to where I'm at. So we just so connected and then those connections just go from there, so speaking with people on podcasts and in person and doing some traveling. So it's just, it's an ongoing process. You just kind of hook on wherever you can to get the word out. You know, and John's amazing at that.
Speaker 5:He's just amazing at all his business connections and family and, like he said, he's been in Europe and Texas and he's got such an amazing combination of attributes. So I told him he and I need to go on the road more, but you know he's in Colorado.
Speaker 4:Okay, so you guys, yeah, I feel a little bit like you could do some book signings and things like that, Right, oh my God, oh, I love that. Well, and you know, I wanted to make sure that we had the information. You know how to reach both of you and get in touch with you. So I do have your websites and stuff. But let's talk about the book. Is there? I mean, is there a second book in the talking and any ideas or what can we look forward to in the future? John, what's next for you?
Speaker 6:I would like to take because I don't know if we got into this. The book's broken into three parts. The middle part is the biography. I would like to expand on the biography part. I've been approached by a few people about a movie and that could be anything from a one-episode Netflix thing to you know what I always want, which is an Academy Award. So, you know, changing that as far as the book and the work and stuff go, that would kind of be where I would see it. You know, from this way and I again it's I'm doing this current business this will become like a business for me, the book along with the foundation. So yeah, I mean, it's really kind of branching out and doing stuff like that. And look, I do.
Speaker 6:Also, it's not related to the topic, but I do also have some different views from a lot of people that are kind of coming from my angle. One, as a lifelong entrepreneur and business owner, not a huge fan of DEI. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of DEI. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of it. I don't see why, if I've taken my money or someone else's money and my time and my ideas and created something, that I should be forced to hire whoever Now on the opposite end of that, huge into accommodation, right? So in my view it's about accommodation.
Speaker 6:I think DEI lends itself to like an affirmative action situation which I have American, african-american friends who are in their 50s that are like I'm still not getting over that. They were brilliant and it has that stigma. So you know that that's one thing. The other thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way is you know this world that I don't fit into? You know this world that I don't fit into? Funnily enough, people like myself created it and you can't reverse, diagnose people. But if you look at the experts and who I mean we're talking Thomas Jefferson, henry Ford, nikolai Tesla, einstein in modern day, you know Gates, jobs, right. It just it baffles me sometimes that we create the very world that we're not accepted in yeah, that's really um ironic and very misunderstood yeah I mean it's I?
Speaker 4:saw some really strange art pictures in my mind for some reason I don't know why.
Speaker 5:I don't know what that brought to me, but yeah, oh my gosh, it's crazy, that's, that's a that's a big connection that John and I have in terms of you know, I'm looking at children, he's looking at adults. That accommodation it's not that, you know, a lot of schools will say, well, we don't have the money for that, or we don't have the space to do that, or we don't have the trained specialists to do that they start going down the road of all the things they don't have or can't do, and it's the same in an office situation. They think it's going to be costly, they think we need special lighting or this or that. You know it's just start shooting it down before it's even tried.
Speaker 4:You know, implemented, Such simple accommodations can spawn such great success and happiness oh goodness, you had mentioned a foundation and I had that address right here on the SpectrumFoundationorg. Talk to us a little bit about that and what you do with the foundation and for the community.
Speaker 6:Well, it's really parallel to the book. I mean it's, you know, it's creating awareness. When I first got diagnosed I was like you know, like a lot of people that are on the spectrum, I'm like I'm going to take all of this. So it's like the entire low functioning, high functioning battle and care except and I kept just narrowing it down and I ended up at 2E, that's. That's kind of how it all works, because they're really the only people like I on the spectrum that I can communicate with. It's, again, kind of hard to explain, but that's kind of where it went was towards twice exceptionality.
Speaker 6:I do life coaching, classic, what used to be called Asperger's. I find very difficult to life coach. It's just I can't establish the rapport, I can't get the conversational turn. Adults, you know, I mean they immediately want to talk, they're immediately interested in the subject matter. So you know that kind of stuff. But as far as the foundation's goals go, at this point it's just awareness.
Speaker 6:Unfortunately, I am very hyper-focused on the for-profit business right now. At this moment. Part of the goal of that is to be able to put quite a bit of capital back into the 501c3 and start expanding what we're doing. But I'll get email messages that really it's nothing beyond oh wow, now I understand myself a lot better. Or oh wow, I'm going to go seek a diagnosis. So even in its passive role, it's still doing part of what I want it to do.
Speaker 6:But we'd really like to turn up the volume on that when time allows, and I'm at the age where a lot of my friends are starting to retire, semi-retire, and have more time to help with stuff like that. So you know, the kids are out of the house and they can go. So at any rate, that's really kind of the overall goal of it is really awareness and then people being able to look at it and have some degree of self-acceptance and realize that they're not alone and that they're not broken and that in all actuality, they're, in a large part, of the people that have contributed most to our society.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And we'll we'll have to follow each other and read each other's posts, because I'm sure we've probably said the same thing. I've been reading the paragraph before, so I love that. I love that, john. No, it's. It's been so nice to get to know you both and, um, tell us what we can find when we go to your website, debra, as far as how can can clients reach out to you? What does that process look like for them?
Speaker 5:Right. So if you go to my website, deborahgenerellicom, individuals will find a lot of different things. One of them is how I, how, what my passion is about, and then they will find both our books there. They'll find reviews of both of our books there as well as on Amazon, but they're there as well A list of resources for parents, adults that want to learn about giftedness and twice exceptionality, and those resources are broken down into books and articles and podcasts and YouTube connections different things that I've already found that I think are amazing, and so they can just find those right in one spot. And then there's also if parents or school districts want to talk to me about supporting them, advocating for them and their needs. There's that as well. So it's a lot of different connections on my website and that's where they can find me.
Speaker 4:I love that. Well, it's been so nice to get to know you guys. Thank you for being patient to get, to get, um, to get here. I know I had to get through this summit that I just did, which was phenomenal 18 hours worth of amazing, uh, information for the community and, hopefully, just the world, anybody who decides to go listen. So, and it was streamed free for the first time, which I was, you know, not sure what that was gonna look like, but it was phenomenal. And um, which I was, you know not sure what that was going to look like, but it was phenomenal. And, yeah, and I was going to ask what are some of the what's, some of the feedback from the book that you've gotten, john? That's just, you know, been the best.
Speaker 6:Well, again, like I said, the reviews, the reviews, reviews are there and obviously those kind of speak for themselves. But just just in general, um, a better understanding of it. I mean my you know, my friends, uh, first of all were the ones. And deb spoke with my best friend, pierce, and the way, the way that went down from my diagnosis was I called him. I was like, hey, look, here's what's you know, here's what they're saying. He called me back in 30 minutes and he's a very analytical engineer, he's a really smart guy, and he was like, yep, I've been looking for that for 45 years. That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 6:So, then, kind of taking that and then just expanding upon it. But I mean, I've had feedback from friends that really appreciated it educators, parents, all different angles and that was really one of our goals is Deb and I didn't want to pigeonhole this to a specific audience. It's for HR managers, it's for educators, it's for people themselves. It's the whole gamut and I think breaking it into those three parts really helps with that, because people are going to be attracted to the different, you know. You know what I mean. Each one of those is going to be something that people are predominantly attracted to.
Speaker 4:So absolutely navigating neuro divergence. Is that right?
Speaker 6:navigating neurodiversity neurodiversity.
Speaker 4:I thank you. It's like what I can't be typing today and and talking at the same time, for some reason but the way we talk.
Speaker 5:We talk quite a bit, sarah, in the first part of the book about you know what is giftedness, what is um, you know what is autism, and then how there's kind of a a thread that pulls through those two um so individuals that again don't really see giftedness as a neurodiversity, which it is. That's why, you know, when I talk to educators about these kids, brains are working differently and therefore their behaviors sometimes are different than the neurotypical kid in the classroom. That's really important to understand. So there's a good breakdown of that in the first part of the book. And then everyone has to just soak up the middle part, which is all about John's life. And you know I wish it could have been a 500 page book, but our publishers, like you know, keep it to 300 pages or we're talking about a textbook. So yeah, and then the last part you know, about how we can support twice exceptional individuals, from children to adults.
Speaker 4:Are there any other resources other than your guys' websites that you'd like to give to the community?
Speaker 5:I would just say, if you're going to my website, click on the resource tab and, like I said, there is a lot of information.
Speaker 4:Love that, love that? Yeah, I think that it's. I'm finding so many amazing organizations and ways to get support. Every family is different. Every individual is different, so find what you need, what feels right for you, what resonates. Find what you need what feels right for you, what resonates and kind of sounds like. John has already surrounded himself with like-minded individuals and friends of that nature, so doing great. Yeah, thank you so much for your time today, both of you, I appreciate it and yeah I would love to stay in touch.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity. Stay in touch.
Speaker 5:Yeah, absolutely Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely it was really fun, john, good seeing you.
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